			    TRAVELLER Digest 175

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) 	by traveller@MPGN.COM
  2) Re: Star Fleet Battles	by Michael Llaneza <mllaneza@mercury.sfsu.edu>
  3) Joining a newgroup	by "Post, D L (Dan)" <PostD%HOST2@WLV.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM>
  4) Planetary defenses	by Michael Llaneza <mllaneza@mercury.sfsu.edu>
  5) Stuff	by Evyn.Gutierrez@highsierra.wmeonlin.sacbbx.com (Evyn Gutierrez)
  6) Rexx Scripts for TNE	by jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
  7) Was SFB, now BR stuff	by merrick@RT66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
  8) Comments on Challenge 75 & New Damage System	by Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@informatik.uni-kiel.d400.de>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 12:40:34 -0500
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			    TRAVELLER Digest 174

Topics covered in this issue include:

  1) Star Fleet Battles
	by Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: 	Fri, 27 Jan 1995 14:59:27 -0000
From: Liam_McCauley@qsp.co.uk
To: traveller@MPGN.COM, xboat@MPGN.COM
Subject: Star Fleet Battles
Message-ID: <f290cd90@pc173.qsp.co.uk>

     Sorry that this isn't really a Traveller posting, but it's the only 
     avenue of inquiry I can think of that I haven't tried yet (and it is 
     to do with sci-fi space combat).
     
     Due to a referee in our regular role-playing club taking time out to 
     redesign his campaign, I filled in with a couple of games of Star 
     Fleet Battles (no-one wanted to play Battle Riders - the 
     philistines!).  What I want to know is, is there a Star Fleet Battles 
     mailing list, and if so what is its address?  I've heard that there's 
     something on CompuServe, but I don't think I can access it.
     
     You can get back to rocks now.
     
     Thanks in advance,
     
     Liam McCauley
     
     
     Liam_McCauley@QSP.co.uk

------------------------------

End of TRAVELLER Digest 174
***************************



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 10:30:05 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Llaneza <mllaneza@mercury.sfsu.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Re: Star Fleet Battles
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950127100742.25136A-100000@mercury>

Battle Rider is very difficult to get a handle on, I've played a lot of 
SFB and find it very easy to set up a balanced game with and to easily 
ascertain how effective weapons and sensors are. I  expect that BR will 
get easier, perhaps someone will post a replay of a game (GDW? playtesters?).

An SFB mailing list exists, email Steve Cole at S.Cole@genie.geis.com and 
ask him about it (come to think of it I'd like the address myself).

Back to BR. One of the problems we ran into playing it was that
1) Ranges are hard to get a feel for. I'll be making a reference card to 
write down ranges, to hit #'s, and damage values. What format should I 
post it in?

2)The ships as designed are hard to hurt with direct fire weapons. Note 
that a battleship is almost immune to meson gun fire and particle 
accelerators as well. For example a Sylea class BB has a meson screen 
factor of 16. When its size of -4 is added in it takes a meson gun of 21 
to do any permanent damage. The Sylea itself carries the largest meson 
gun in the game and only has a 16 factor at short (10 hex) range. 
Admittedly any shot which isn't completely blocked by the screen will do 
temporary damage if its Dv exceeds the size modifier, but that means that 
the primary weapon of the largest ships in the game can't hurt each other 
at all. That leaves missiles and lasers as the only weapons that can 
_hurt_ an enemy capital ship.

I find this somehow unsatisfactory. And I suspect that the ship designs
were done and not properly evaluated for effectiveness against their
primary opponents. The battleships in BR all carry missiles at 40(200)
factors, and the battle riders have missile factors of 20(100). A Sylea BB
has 30 lasers and 40 sandcasters to shoot down incoming missiles. They had
better be well escorted as an attempt to kill a BB will involve several
ships worth of missiles attacking one defending ship. You'll also need
sensor pickets to _detect_ the missiles in time for defenses to engage the
missiles before they make their attack pass. 

I don't see the usefulness of meson guns under the current rules systems. 
Ditto for N-PAWS. Missiles are highly effective but are easily countered. 
Lasers are perhaps too effective, I don't think GDW took large diameter 
lasers into account at all (see my previous post of a tl-12 laser with a 
BR factor of 10:(-2) 10-8-5-3) in designing their ships. It seems that BR 
has broken the assumptions made about space combat from High Guard to MT.

ANy thoughts?

 Michael Carter Llaneza
Conceptual Design Services             The Worse it gets,
Pi Kappa Phi                           The more I get used to it.
"I am the NRA"			       Duty Now For The Future



------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jan 95 10:56:00 PST
From: "Post, D L (Dan)" <PostD%HOST2@WLV.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM>
To: Traveller <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Joining a newgroup
Message-ID: <2F29420C@MX.IIPO.GTEGSC.COM>


 How can I join a traveller news group??
          Dan Post

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 12:39:00 -0800 (PST)
From: Michael Llaneza <mllaneza@mercury.sfsu.edu>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Cc: Multiple recipients of list <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Planetary defenses
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.91.950127122856.19001A-100000@mercury>

I built an Excel 4.0 worksheet today that calculates space-style Meson guns.
I then ran a few really big ones through, these are sized for planetary 
defense, but the numbers are for a spaceship mount.

          DE   	TL   Volume   Mass     Price   Power  Length Surface Area
Totals 50000	15 1,008,750  617,900 100,092  1,389   2000	   1000
BR stats 10:25-20-16-12

Thats a hundred billion credits and it can still only guarantee damage on 
a BB at 10 hexes or less, does some damage at 20 hexes, and can't hurt a 
ship with a large meson screen past 21 hexes at all. On the otherhand, 
the gun is 2 klicks long, and draws over a gigawatt of power. And I 
repeat, a hundred billion credits.

If there's an interest I can add deep mounts to the worksheet and put up a
variety of weapons from different TL's. The worksheet contains all the
neccessary tables and so I can't post the darn thing anywhere. 

By the way, a meson gun deep mount includes contragravity for the entire 
traverse sphere, so the weapon turns to bear on a target as if it were in 
zero-g (.01g or less). That doesn't eliminate mass, but surely helps.

whtat the hey, I'll put the new formulae in now...

Michael Carter Llaneza 
Conceptual Design Services             The Worse it gets,
Pi Kappa Phi                           The more I get used to it.
"I am the NRA"			       Duty Now For The Future


------------------------------

Date: 27 Jan 95 00:59:00 -0800
From: Evyn.Gutierrez@highsierra.wmeonlin.sacbbx.com (Evyn Gutierrez)
To: <traveller@MPGN.COM>
Subject: Stuff
Message-ID: <172_9501270237@wmeonlin.sacbbx.com>


Well kids, I've been silent for a whiles. There is one thing
that been bugging me, and that is call-signs. My players were
all hot to give themselves their own. And the ones they came
up with were BAD, VERY BAD. So here is a simple house rule We
came up with.  ( No I won't list the rejects, half of them were not for 
polite company)
 
The player can come up with a possible callsign, then he/she/it 
has the pleasant duty to let the rest of the group vote ( moan,
is the likely case), If the group objects, then a appropriate 
callsign is given, through the characters action and/or 
mannerisms.
 
This method seems to work best, and it cuts down on the really
bad one and lets the good ones by.

In other things, could one of you nice people list here or in private mail 
the stats Tl 14 144mj laser lance from BL. I've seemed to misplaced some 
reference material in the this most recent move.

Evyn,




 This copy of Freddie 1.2.5
--- FidoPCB v1.5 beta-'j'

------------------------------

Date: Thu, 26 Jan 95 18:35:00 -0500
From: jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com (JEFF ZEITLIN)
To: TRAVELLER@MPGN.COM
Subject: Rexx Scripts for TNE
Message-ID: <8A2545B.010003F91E.uuout@execnet.com>


  Cynthia, I just got a copy of a REXX interpreter for DOS and for
  Windows.  Could you please mail me copies all of your TNE 
  scripts?

  NB: I lost your address, else I'd not be requesting them over the 
  list...
==========================================================================
Jeff Zeitlin                                      jeff.zeitlin@execnet.com
---
  QMPro 1.53  Chief Archivist, Regency Institute for Cultural Education

------------------------------

Date: Fri, 27 Jan 1995 17:30:38 -0700 (MST)
From: merrick@RT66.com (Merrick Burkhardt)
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Was SFB, now BR stuff
Message-ID: <9501280030.AA16669@RT66.com>

Howdy, here's my $0.02:

> Battle Rider is very difficult to get a handle on, I've played a lot of 
> SFB and find it very easy to set up a balanced game with and to easily 
> ascertain how effective weapons and sensors are. I  expect that BR will 
> get easier, perhaps someone will post a replay of a game (GDW?
playtesters?).

Not wanting to get too off track, but the major problems with many scenarios
for both these games (and others) is that they shouldn't always be balanced
:)
But I know what you're getting at...

> Back to BR. One of the problems we ran into playing it was that
> 1) Ranges are hard to get a feel for. I'll be making a reference card to 
> write down ranges, to hit #'s, and damage values. What format should I 
> post it in?

A useful thing to have... dunno about the best format---mac would be nice :)
Or Word or something else portable.
 
> 2)The ships as designed are hard to hurt with direct fire weapons. Note 
> that a battleship is almost immune to meson gun fire and particle 
> accelerators as well. For example a Sylea class BB has a meson screen 
> factor of 16. When its size of -4 is added in it takes a meson gun of 21 
> to do any permanent damage. The Sylea itself carries the largest meson 
> gun in the game and only has a 16 factor at short (10 hex) range. 
> Admittedly any shot which isn't completely blocked by the screen will do 
> temporary damage if its Dv exceeds the size modifier, but that means that 
> the primary weapon of the largest ships in the game can't hurt each other 
> at all.

The result, though, is that you need to get an Outstanding success to do real
damage... this'll drop the range on the meson guns (they were always short
range weapons).  It also means that it's worth the extra point cost to buy
the
Crack crew.

> That leaves missiles and lasers as the only weapons that can 
> _hurt_ an enemy capital ship.

True enough at range.  
 
> I find this somehow unsatisfactory. And I suspect that the ship designs
> were done and not properly evaluated for effectiveness against their
> primary opponents. The battleships in BR all carry missiles at 40(200)
> factors, and the battle riders have missile factors of 20(100). A Sylea BB
> has 30 lasers and 40 sandcasters to shoot down incoming missiles. They had
> better be well escorted as an attempt to kill a BB will involve several
> ships worth of missiles attacking one defending ship. You'll also need
> sensor pickets to _detect_ the missiles in time for defenses to engage the
> missiles before they make their attack pass. 

There are *many* problems with missiles in BR/BL IMHO.  The big problem in
terms of a change from what those of us that played CT expect to happen is
that
missiles couldn't do more than scape stuff off a BB before, now they can kill
it.  We don't allow Outstanding hits for missiles when we play BR, since they
are nasty enough with the 1-6 damage (compared to a 2 in BL (converted to
BR).

But in reality, I think there should be KE missiles, which would do the 1-12+
possible in BR as it was written, so I am confused :)

BTW, the Sylea has 30*ABS(-4)=120 lasers!, but only 30 can bear through a
given hexside.  The system as designed makes a task force big enough for a
few laser
laden escorts (CA sized) important if you want to keep the BB alive.

Also, the BL rules promised rules for damper *screens*, not just the single-
target turrrts listed, but we never got them.  We had thought about letting
the
ships attack their size class (abs value of) times the listed damper number
of
missiles.  Another possiblity would be to let each damper attack an entire
spread (any missiles launched at the same target from the same ship that
don't
take different routes are a spread).  That would at least make the big ships
less crippled by missile attack.

The same could be done with sand (that, or make it work like chaff/flares
from
the FFS rules).
 
> I don't see the usefulness of meson guns under the current rules systems. 
> Ditto for N-PAWS. Missiles are highly effective but are easily countered. 

Yeah, but if the Sylea was converted from High Guard it would have a missile 
factor that looks more like this:  M:10000(10000)  :)

> Lasers are perhaps too effective, I don't think GDW took large diameter 
> lasers into account at all (see my previous post of a tl-12 laser with a 
> BR factor of 10:(-2) 10-8-5-3) in designing their ships. It seems that BR 
> has broken the assumptions made about space combat from High Guard to MT.
 
Yup.  You have to put a cap on laser power (or power per unit FA, maybe) or
everything will go out of whack.

Also, that escort CA would have L(200 -5)10:1-1-0-0 with a size class of -3

Lot of little missile killer lasers pumped to -5 DM, of couse you'd never
detect
the missiles in BL, but it's *easy* in BR (yet another problem :(  We give 
detection attempts with a passive sensor vs missiles a -2 if the missile used
any gturns (little missile, big burner)... and they're *still* hard to detect
before they blow up in your face!

> ANy thoughts?
> 
>  Michael Carter Llaneza

-Merrick

------------------------------

Date: Sat, 28 Jan 1995 13:01:23 +0100
From: Stefan Matthias Aust <sma@informatik.uni-kiel.d400.de>
To: traveller@MPGN.COM
Subject: Comments on Challenge 75 & New Damage System
Message-ID: <9501281201.AA06522@donald>


After a long time of waiting I finally got an issue of the Challenge
75. Because I've looked forward to this all Traveller issue since New
Year, I would like to make some comments on this magazine. First of
all, I've to say that on the whole I like this issue, but (and there's
always a 'but') some article show me again, why I hate and love
Traveller at the same time.

On sentence on the (back)cover: GDW really seems to have to save
money. The Challenge looks more than a catalog than a magazine. It
looks good but boring. But it's the contents that counts, isn't it.

The first adventure, "Undercity", is IMHO also the best one. Perhaps
it's because I like the "Oasis Pocket Empire" background, that is
detailed in the last article of Challenge 75. The adventure contains
an original setting, some good NPCs and a story which has much room
for roleplaying. As it reads it's only another smash and grab (SAG)
variant (even if with less smash) but with an emphasize on the NPCs. I
think, there's a great potential in this setting.

The other adventures, "Operation Wolf Snare", "The Long Fall Club" and
"The Madness Effect" have the Reformation Coalition as background. The
first two adventures are pure SAGs. Both adventures have a direct
combat action emphasized plot. As a general critic, I don't
understand, why all worlds outside the RC are evil dictatorships or
worlds where another subjective reason exists so that the RCES feels
justified to rob and murder. I think, GDW and most adventure-writer
forget, that the fall of the last Imperium is only 70 years ago.
There're still a lot of people around, who remember the old time. I
can't believe that humanity will fall back to such a primitive
level. As I understand, TL doesn't describe the civic level but only
the technology level. People don't became automatically primitive only
because they've no computers anymore. So I don't understand the
primitive behavior of the Daaridaians in the "Wolf Snare" adventure
(the text stats that the world had industries before the fall, that is
at least TL5). Furthermore, the world Daariada is about 16 weeks away
of the RC core and wide outside the area of operation. So it's an
illegal operation, even for the RCES, as I understand. As a last
point, I would like to grumble about the TNE combat rules again, and
mention, that, if the player character wear the "standard RCES light
combat armor" -- as shown at the picture on page 27 -- the whole
combat mission become routine because no native or space pirate could
harm the players. No plan is needed, only targeting and shooting.

On most worlds, I would think, the RCES or other spacers would be the
long awaited rescue that could help with the rebuild of the world.
Perhaps people have now a strong distrust in computer (or even in the
whole technology) but most behavior would be to try to live peaceful
voluntarily on a lower TL.  In the first years after the collapse
there I strong idea of "this was the greatest war of humanity, there
shall not be no war anymore!" And such an idea could last over 50
years (as, for example, your history in europe shows) Back to the
Challenge...

The "Long Fall Club" adventure is built up on the idea that if the
others can't protect their property, it's my property. It's a briefing
- travel - combat - debriefing plot with no opportunity for roleplay
(at least that what I would call roleplaying.) However, it seems to be
a somewhat difficult combat mission (if not the players own that AV6
"standard RCES light battle armor" ;-).

The last adventure, "The Madness Effect", is a very untypical
adventure and a very interesting one, too. It as a little touch of
Horror games like Cthulhu. I like this adventure and would like to see
more adventures of this kind. Even if it's set in the RC, there are no
problems to transfer the adventure to any Traveller setting.

The description and the idea of the NPC "Karel Rossum" is IMHO one of
the best articles. However, I'm afraid I can't say much more without
uncover his uncommon secret. This article could be combined this the
"Oasis" backgrounder or used in any other background.

The "Quick Start" characters and the pregenerated NPCs ("A Friend in
Need") are good articles, either.

"Planetfall", however, the not-mass-but-more-than-a-dozen combat
system has some flaws. (Btw, is this system compatible to the much
advertised "Striker II?") The idea is good, nearly as good as to use
this as the standard combat system. But I've the same problems with
this system as with the TNE combat system. People will not die,
weapons will not wound.

As a concrete example look at the RQS and Vargr templates that are
supplied (as an outlook to the Regency source book? :-) at the end of
the article. I'll reproduce the templates here:

                         Init Fire Melee Armor Wnds
A RQS Marine (Elite)       5    15   15     1    16
B RQS Marine (Veteran)     4    13   13     1    14

C Vargr Raider (Veteran)   4    13   13     1    14
D Vargr Raider (Exp.)      3    11   11     1    12
E Vargr Raider (Green)     1     9    9     1    12

Init is normal TNE Initiative, Fire and Melee are combat assets, Armor
the armor value and Wnds the number of wounds. Instead of 40 hit
points, normal NPCs have 12 wounds, characters have STR+CON
wounds. Weapons will do as much wounds as there damage value is.

The RQS's are equipped with a snub pistol and an ACR. Let's forget the
pistol, it is useless because of the armor of the Vargr. The ACR will
do 4 wounds (DV 5, Pen 1) at near range.  Soldier A has a 25% chance
for an outstanding success, and a 50% chance for a normal hit. The
expectation value is a damage of 4, or 20 when firing a burst. That
kills any Vargr.

expected damage chart:

   A                               B
25% crit (8)                15% crit (8)
50% hit  (4) -> 4 / 20      50% hit  (4) --> 3.2 / 16
25% miss (0)   average      35% miss (0)      average

Firing bursts, all Vargr are dead (free sight assumed).

The Vargr are armed with pistols (forget them) and Assault Rifles (DV
4, Pen 2), doing 2 wounds against the RQS's. They've no change, even
to kill A or B. As an additional flaw, the Vargr captain (A) should be
equipped only with a pistol (he's dead before combat starts).

   C                      D                    E
15% crit(4)           5% crit(4)          0% crit(4)
50% hit (2)->1.6/8   50% hit (2)->1.2/6  45% hit (2)->0.9/4.5
35% miss(0)  average 45% miss(0) average 55% miss(0)  average

The normal RCES soldier would look like F (as from the pictures), a
player character perhaps like G (as the two soldiers in my groups do)

                          Init Fire Melee Armor Wnds
F RCES Marine (Veteran)    4    13   13     6    14
G Lancer (rated as Elite)  6    16   16     6    20

All weapons of the RQS or Vargr are useless, the RCES's would perhaps
carry ACRs or LAGs. Even with an Armor=2 there're (nearly) invincible.

I think, it's more realistic, that with higher TL, not only armor
protection but also the weapon damage will increase. (How this will
happen, is left as an exercise for the reader :-) The AV6-battle dress
is TL12, so a TL12 small arms weapon should be able to penetrate this
armor. As a solution for this problem I would suggest Penetration
values of 1/2, 1/4 or 1/3.

* An ACR with "crystaniron uranium armor piercing" (CUAP to give the
  child a name) rounds should have a Pen of 1/2 instead of 1). CUAPs are
  available at TL10. (rules like DS, but Pen-2)

* Crystaniron uranium ultra explosive (CUUE, TL11) rounds are improved
  HE rounds, don't subtract 7 when calculating the explosive energy.
  (This rule isn't perfect)

* Superdense high velocity (SDHV, TL12) are actual small rocket guns
  and reduce Pen from 1 to 1/4 or Nil to 1 at near range (else like CUAP).

* Superdense high explosive (DSUE, TL12) are improved HEAPs with a
  1-1-1 penetration. Don't subtract 7 when calculating the explosive
  energy.

* Superdense explosive armor piercing (EAP) are the state of the art
  TL14 rounds, designed for maximum penetration (2->1/2, 1->1/4, nil->1)
  and maximum damage. (Pen/4, don't subtract 7)

(Oh, that's fun. I'll try to design something useful...)

5.5x45mm-12                    9x44mm-12
  Weight: 11g                    Weight: 28g
  Av. Muzzle Energy: 4448J       Av. Muzzle Energy: 6700J
  Price: Cr0.5                   Price: Cr2 (without cost multiplier for
                                             special ammunition)

5.5mm Assault Riffle-9  DV  Pen
  5.5x45mm CUAP-12       5  1/2-1-2
  5.5x45mm CUUE-12       7  Nil
  5.5x45mm SDHV-12       5  1/4-1-2
  5.5x45mm SDHE-12       7  1-1-1

9mm G12-12              DV  Pen
  9x44mm CUAP-12         6  1/2-2-4
  9x44mm CUUE-12         9  Nil
  9x44mm SDHV-12         6  1/4-2-4
  9x44mm SDHE-12         9  1-1-1

10mm Snub Pistol-12     DV  Pen
  10x17.5mm CUAP-12      2  1-Nil


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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 175
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Subject: TRAVELLER digest 175
Date: 95-01-28 12:46:07 EST
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  10x17.5mm CUUE-12      7  Nil    (Well, a little too high :-)
  10x17.5mm SDHV-12      2  1/2-Nil
  10x17.5mm SDHE-12      7  1-1-1

When calculating armor protection, round 0.5 to 1 and 0.25 to 0. A
5.5x45mm SDHV-12 round has a DV of 5 - 6 * 1/4 = 5 - 1.5 ==> 5 - 2 = 3
against my beloved AV6 armor. A 9x44mm SDHE-12 round could kill a AV1
protected soldier doing DV16 at an outstanding success. That looks
better (IHMO).

Hm, I would now give (normal) NPCs 12 wounds and players (and
important NPCs) (STR+CON)/2+6 wounds.

Wounds (W)  Effect
< 0         dead (perhaps only critical wounded in case of PCs)
< 3 (1/4W)  critical wounded
< 6 (1/2W)  serious wounded
<12 (W-1)   slightly wounded

For hit locations, I would distribute the wounds as follows:

HL   Wounds   Effect
Arm  3 (1/4W) <0 arm useless, have to drop all things carried.
Leg  4 (1/3W) <0 leg useless, can't walk or stand.
Head 3 (1/4W) <0 dead (that's live)
Cest 6 (1/2W) <0 critical wounded, can't move arms or legs
Abd. 4 (1/3W) <0 serious wounded, can't move legs

Each damage is also subtracted from total hitpoints. Arms and Legs
cant only absorb twice the maximal wounds. All other damage is
lost. If an arm or leg is reduced by more than twice the maximal
wounds, the part of the body is destroyed. (This damage system is
somewhat like RuneQuest)

Example: An type B RQS marine has 16 total wounds. He's hit for 4
wounds in the left leg. Now he has only 12 total wounds and his left
leg has 1 of 5 wounds left. Again he's hit, left arm, 5 wounds. His
arm has now -1 of 4 wounds, the total wounds are reduced to 7 (he's
now serious wounded). Because his arm has less than zero wounds left,
he can't use his ACR anymore and he has to draw his pistol.  Another
hit, 12 wounds, again the left arm, would reduce his wounds only to -4
and his total wounds to 4. However, the arm doesn't look well and is
total useless. He's now nearly critical wounded and decided to become
unconscious.

What do you think about these changes? I really wish to hear some
comments.

Now I'm total off topic and I've not mentioned that the Callenge 75
also contains two deck plans of the 600t Liner and the 400t Corsair.
And I've not ask whether anyone here has further informations about
the region of the Oasis subsector.

tschues
--
Stefan Matthias Aust // keep the soldiers gunning, keep the cameras running,
                    //  cause the rulers always laugh at the video bloodbath

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End of TRAVELLER Digest 175
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